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Talk:Star Trek (film)/Ten Forward
On this page, we will discuss how and where to add information from the upcoming after its release. During the site lockdown, preliminary discussion results from a specific, open IRC channel may be added here. After the lockdown, full discussion will continue here. See: *Forum:Star Trek (film) - Removing spoiler restrictions / Site lockdown for a discussion of this. *Memory Alpha:Announcements/Star Trek release announcement for the official announcement resulting from that. *Forum:Star Trek (film) - SPOILERS - Where to place new information (pre-release discussion) for pre-release discussions of the same topic. -- Cid Highwind 10:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC) __TOC__ IRC discussion May 7 Participants: User:Jörg, User:Cid Highwind, later User:Tim Thomason, User:Bp, User:Shran, BCSWowbagger, User:ZenMondo *Jörg states that items just being "namedropped" could just be added to existing articles, while separate articles should be created for clearly incompatible uses (citing Delta Vega as an example). Cid thinks that merging info from different timelines into one article may be more complicated than having two separate articles. *Jörg thinks we'll need clear identifiers for the different timelines (example identifiers below). Cid agrees, and suggests to additionally identify the timeline an article belongs to by some sort of page icon or graphic. Jörg likes the idea. *Identifiers: "(alternate)" is considered too generic. Brainstormed other terms include "Narada", "Nero", "Red Matter", "Kelvin", "2233 split". Jörgs suggestion of "Kelvin Destruction timeline", abbreviated for article qualifiers as "(KD)" is the best idea we can come up for the moment. ** Bp joining in later suggested using "(alternate)" or "(Abramsverse)" ** BCSWowbagger later "voted" for separating pages responsibly. He cited Natasha Yar (from ) as a special case, due to her being a "tiny character," but Shran pointed out that the same was true for Hikaru Sulu and Nyota Uhura. *Joining later, Tim suggests to qualify Delta Vega articles by (Vulcan system) and (galactic barrier). However, this tells nothing about the timeline the planets are from. Each one may not exist in the "other" one. *Cid discussed adding a special qualifier bar at the top of the screen (here). This still needs to be updated for all skins. *Shran later joined in and expressed his wish to hug the writers of Star Trek. *There was some discussion regarding the age of Pavel Chekov (17 in 2258-set ; 22 in 2267-set ). Shran and Tim agreed that the events of the alternate timeline may have caused a different conception time, and since he existed entirely in the alternate timeline, it had no effect on the original universe. *Tim and BCSWowbagger disagreed on whether the reference to "Admiral Archer's prized beagle" should be Porthos, due to the time of the incident. *Shran and Tim agreed that images known or apparently taken from bootlegged sources shouldn't be used on the site, whereas ZenMondo believed that any screencaps from the film should be accepted. Additional comments :I'm on my way to a theater right now, so I'm not taking the time to log in to IRC -- one thought though, there was, in "Where No Man...", a sign in the set decoration that identified the TOS station as being on planet "Delta-Vega". Perhaps we should use that hyphenated name for the TOS planet? -- Captain MKB 22:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC) ::My disambiguant vote goes to "Red matter reality" or "Nero's timeline", but neither lends itself to a catchy abbreviation. -- Captain MKB 02:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :::This is a very difficult decision. Characters like Uhura (soon to by at "Nyota Uhura") and Hikaru Sulu would definitely benefit from additional info to expand their articles, but pages that are already long, like James T. Kirk and Spock, would just be made even longer. I don't supposed we can have movie info for long page characters on separate pages, and put movie info for the shorter pages in those pages, could we? (Not sure if that made sense, but there you go.) As for a qualifier, how about "Kelvin Timeline" (or KT) or just "Timeline B"? --From Andoria with Love 04:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC)--From Andoria with Love 04:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::::I agree the timeline should rather be "Kelvin timeline" than "red matter timeline" or "Nero timeline", as the destruction of said ship changed everything. Nero and red matter will be forgotten in the next movie, the fact that Kirk's Dad died aboard the ship, crewmembers on that ship first saw Romulans (no more "Balance of terror") and Pike writing his thesis about George Kirk and the Kelvin will still be relevant in the netx movie(s). Hell, even the fact that there are salt shakers in the shape of the USS Kelvin show, that it's pretty significant. --Jörg 13:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::::The destruction of the Kelvin may have been the first change but it is not the biggest change. The destruction of Vulcan will be remembered more then the destruction of the Kelvin, and will change the timeline more significantly. May 8 Participants: User:Cid Highwind, User:ZenMondo, Bacon, Samy_M, User:Tim Thomason, User:Majorthomme, willyum Three points have been brought up by Cid, in reply to comments on this page: #''"Nyota Uhura" - we technically don't know that, as the new Uhura was born in the separate timeline already'' - we should be very cautious when adding "new timeline" stuff to "old timeline" articles! #''"Nero timeline" (or any N*** timeline) would have the nice side effect of being abbreviated as "NT". Which, in turn, could have a secondary meaning of "new timeline"'' - We can add article title qualifiers like "(NT)" to new article, which is pretty short. On the page, we can then qualify this (using a template) as "Nero timeline". #''i updated the "qualifier bar" somewhat. both graphically, and on the script side to work with monobook'' - the link has already been posted above. If this meets consensus, feel free to grab everything necessary from MA/eo and add it here. You can see in the RC there which pages I changed. If we use this, we could also adopt the design for other "qualifiers", such as realworld, or mirror! Not much discussion about that follows. However, ZenMondo likes the "Nero/new timeline" moniker, while Bacon suggests "vector timeline". Random thoughts brought up later (paraphrased, not actual cites): *Cid: We should make sure to ridicule N*kia as much as possible, on our now-necessary page about them. We shouldn't be a part of that stupid product placement scheme. *ZenMondo: A redirect from "Spock Prime" to Spock is in order. *ZenMondo: Since Winona was in labor before the timeline split occured, shouldn't Kirk's birthplace be changed from Iowa to USS Kelvin? **Cid: Would be speculation to do that, an early birth might have been triggered by stress during the attack, and Kirk otherwise born on Earth. ***ZenMondo: However, check if birthplace:Iowa was really stated as fact, and remove otherwise. --Cid Highwind 11:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :While I like the "NT" distinction, it may not be so appropriate for subsequent movies/other productions set in the alternate timeline as, while the timeline would be featured, Nero will probably not return as a central villian! --Defiant 12:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::I like "Nero's timeline" better than "Nero timeline" (note possessive) for that reason. Even though Nero has passed on and won't return as central villain, he was the driving force in disrupting history, thus he gets the "blame". Also, this has the aforementioned "NT" meaning "new timeline" or "new Trek". ::As to Nyota, I think it would be a little snobbish to think this might not be her canon first name. Nyota has been her non-canon first name in novels for decades, and it was obviously the film's way of acknowledging the long history of licensed literature in the original timeline. Just as Star Trek VI finally acknowledged Sulu's first name of "Hikaru" after it was used in novels for years and TAS finally acknowledged "Tiberius" as Kirk's middle name after it originated in a noncanon source. -- Captain MKB 13:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :::Full agreement here, see my post above. --Jörg 13:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Yeah, here's no reason why Uhura of the prime timeline cannot be named Nyota Uhura. Remember, these are the same characters as in the prime universe, they have just had different experiences. None of the other characters' names have changed at all (James Tiberius Kirk, Hikaru Sulu, Pavel Andreivich Chekov, Montgomery Scott), so there's no reason to believe Uhura is any different. Besides, Gene Roddenberry and Nichelle Nichols have already stated her first name is Nyota, it just hasn't been revealed on-screen until now. As for Kirk's birthplace being changed, there is no need; for all we know, the Kelvin was on its way back to Earth when its sensors detected the black hole. Also, as Cid said, hightened stress might have caused an early birth. As for using "Nero's timeline" or "NT" as the qualifier... I'm okay with that, though I prefer using "NT" to mean "new timeline" rather than "Nero's timeline" (though that can be on of the alternate meanings, as can "new Trek"). I still think we can have some of the information on pre-existing pages, though. Uhura, for certain, needs an expansion. --From Andoria with Love 17:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with using Nyota on both articles, although we should definitely express the source and possible ambiguity on Uhura Prime's page. As for Kirk's birth, we should leave his Prime birthplace ambiguous, and simply state his mother was pregnant with him on the Kelvin. Let the readers wonder if he was born there or in Iowa (where he was "from" and probably grew up). I think right now we can safely use the "(NT)" qualifier after the lockdown and until or unless we come up with another solution.--Tim Thomason 18:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Bp thinks the qualifier should be "red matter timeline" or "RMT" since it is the red matter which creates the singularity which sends Nero back in time in the first place. I agree with this reasoning. He also believes that "Nero's timeline" is not appropriate since A.) Nero existed in the previous timeline, B.) the timeline doesn't belong to Nero, and C.) it's the red matter-created singularity which really alters events, not Nero's destruction of the Kelvin. I also agree with those reasonings. He also doesn't like the term "new timeline," though I personally don't have an issue with that term. So, to reiterate, bp likes red matter timeline/RMT but not Nero's timeline/new timeline/NT. I like red matter timeline/RMT and don't like Nero's timeline/NT, but I can live with new timeline/NT. And there you have it. :-P --From Andoria with Love 19:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :::::I support the direction this discussion is taking.--31dot 19:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC) ::::31dot, could you clarify? Where do you see this discussion going? Do you mean you like "NT" or "RMT" as a qualifier? Or are you just satisfied that we're aiming more towards creating separate articles rather than adding the info to the pre-existing pages? :) --From Andoria with Love 19:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC) :::::I apologize, I was in a rush before and should have been clearer. I think NT/new timeline is the best choice, though RMT doesn't bother me. That's more what I was referring to, though I agree with the way the pages thing is going(sep. pages where warranted) I also think assuming the "Prime" Uhura's first name is Nyota is reasonable.--31dot 22:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC) The following was added later in the day: * Samy_M suggested a more, out-of-universe approach. He suggested that the use of (2009) or (2009 timeline) as a disambiguation would solve the confusion caused by using in-universe monikers. Majorthomme agreed with this. * Tim disagreed with using out-of-universe disambiguates, stating their removal from Memory Alpha in the past. * Samy_M questioned if we should create separate articles for everything seen in the alternate portions of the film, such as phasers specifically. He believes that this would solve the questioning of what gets separate or not. willyum agreed to an extent, and Tim stated that it should be dealt with on a case-to-case basis. --Tim Thomason 23:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC) Additional comments I just returned, it's about 2am here, and I'm probably going to miss out on most of the re-opening fun during the next few days due to other commitments. So, please bear with me while I leave the following two comments: #A personal one: I absolutely hate the moniker "Red matter timeline"! Sorry if anyone feels offended by this, but of all the different names that have been thrown around, this is easily the worst, sounding like something one might expect from a cheesy 50's sci-fi flick. Please, let's not go there, especially keeping in mind what someone said on IRC - whatever name we choose will, probably, be adopted by at least some part of the fandom. What I really like about the article qualifier "(NT)" is that there are so many different, but all fitting, interpretations of what it might mean: Nero's timeline, New timeline, New Trek, Narada-induced turnout ;) - everyone might find some interpretation he likes in those. #An "official" one: please keep in mind that this discussion so far has not been instead of a wider consensus on the wiki, but just in preparation of one. By all means, start writing articles in 4 hours - but please don't cite this page as absolutely disallowing one thing or making "official policy" another. Thank you, and have fun. -- Cid Highwind 00:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :Thoughts/suggestions in no particular order: :* Support moving the "original" Uhura to Nyota Uhura :* Support separating Delta Vega and Delta Vega :* "NT" sounds fine, but I guess this will be something that will be debated massively. :* Make it a rule that all "NT" characters get separated, regardless of original length. Just for simplicity; otherwise it will be a pain looking up who is separated and who is not (e.g. in memorable quotes). For all other articles, split on a case by case basis.– Cleanse 00:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::Red Matter Timeline or "Alternate Reality", and here is why: :::*The new timeline has to be able to be referenced in-universe. I'd like to see the first line of Cid's POV article on New Timeline. In-universe, what is the "new?" and what is the old? Certainly there is no "New Star Trek". :::*And how is it Nero's Timeline? He didn't cause it. He doesn't own it. He existed in both. It isn't his in any way, and after a few films, with other villains and events, are we going to still refer to it as Nero's? :::*Things went into the singularity and came out at different times. We don't actually know that the Nerada was the first thing through, or the earliest change to the timeline. The battle with the Kelvin may not have been the "first" change, maybe only the first big change. :::*The red-matter induced singularity caused the tunnel back in time, and split in the timeline. It makes more sense to call it after that. :::*Or, like DHorizon said, "alternate reality" is something they specifically referenced. The name alternate reality though is so generic, and not at all unique in Trek. It can, however, be described in an in-universe way since the characters have already done so. :::Anyway, "NT" meaning New Timeline, or New Trek, or Nero's Timeline is the worst option because it can't be referenced or written about in the correct POV. So my first choice is "Red Matter timeline," even just because it will be easy to replace when we think of something better, and far second choice is "alternate reality." --bp 05:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::::If it was called Nero's timeline, I can explain why it is Nero's "fault", as it were. His ship was the first to traverse back through time to 2233, and his decision to attack the Kelvin ultimately created the change. So it is his fault. Dave''Subspace Message'' 05:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::::Actually, isn't the term "alternate reality" used in reference to the original timeline, rather than the new one? I don't recall the exact dialogue in the scene, but I think Spock is talking about Nero's origins, and Uhura says "an alternate reality?" Certainly, from the perspective of the characters in the film, the reality from which Nero and "Spock Prime" come is the alternate, not the one in which they exist. :::::I accept that "new timeline" suggests an out-of-universe point of view, but "alternate reality" sets the "original" timeline as the base. I recognize that Nero exists in both timelines, but so did the red matter (it was created in the original timeline, and was used in both — in the original, it was used to stop the supernova). The red matter and the black hole were merely the occasion for the timeline change — as Dave says, Nero was the agent. If we went with "NR", it could mean "Nero-altered timeline" rather than "Nero's timeline" if that's objectionable. —Josiah Rowe 05:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :To answer the question "how is it Nero's timeline?" -- Dave is right -- It is his timeine because it was his decisions and actions that caused it to be! No matter how dead he is, he still initiated the whole ordeal by his own madness. This is also a good naming from POV purposes, because all the characters know that this is why things are different -- because of Nero. Kirk knows his father would have survived if not for Nero, etc. :I also dislike the red-matter naming convention as suggested, it sounds a little hokey as stated earlier.. -- Captain MKB 06:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC) I've haven't seen this movie yet, planning to see it on Monday. However does this mean there are TWO universes in Star Trek now? A Roddenberry one and an Abrams one? :::Nero didn't cause the split. He was caught in the black hole. Also, as I said already, he may not be the first thing sent back, or earliest the thing to appear. The timeline may actually fork much earlier. Certiainly the destruction of the Kelvin is not the fork. The entire Kelvin encounter was in the alternate timeline from the first detection of the "lightning storm" or maybe earlier. Anyway, "alternate reality" seems to be where this is going based on the RC. I'm Ok with that, it is just difficult to imagine The alternate reality when you think of . --bp 06:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::Nero's timeline? This is not Nero's timeline. He didnt create the timeline. The black hole did and he went insane in it and messed around with it, but he did not create it. Spock was also involved in this so it could also be called Spock's timeline (??). The best thing would be to stick to alternate timeline. Unless the writers of Star Trek say it is indeed Nero's Timeline we got no business naming it that. It was not intended to be nor will it be known in the Star Trek universe as Nero's timeline. It should be kept simple. – Distantlycharmed 07:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC) I support making the distinction name "Red Matter timeline". No matter how "hokey" it may be, that's beside the point of how accurate it is! --Defiant 11:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::::: I'm personally extremely pleased we have began using "alternate reality" because it is a term directly from canon, and isn't a term fans have made up. However the articles now being created seem to have no standard to them. Some are written like norman articles, some have the name as "Title (alternate reality)" but content like a normal article and the best ones I think are when the title has the "This and that (alternate reality)" and the text makes it clear in the first sentence with the "...was this and that in the alternate reality". I think we should enforce this as the standard. --Pseudohuman 13:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::::I agree with Pseudohuman. "Red Matter Timeline" and "Nero's Timeline" are made up terms by fans to refer to the events of this story. They are NOT what production says and advertises about this alternate timeline in which this story takes place. It has nothing to do with being hokey, it is just wrong. As an encyclopedia, it would be wrong and inappropriate of us to just make up a term about events, rather than sticking to standard as we know, because it makes sense to US. Unless the studios advertise and directly state' it as "Red Matter Timeline" and "Nero's Timeline" and say "the star trek universe is taking place in nero's timeline" etc, we got no business making up that term and inserting it into the Star Trek encyclopedia like that. "Alternate timeline" really is the best term to be used, especially because it will resonate more with people reading an article about let's say the planet Vulcan that was destroyed in that alternate reality rather in some "Neros's timeline" reality. – Distantlycharmed 14:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::::"Red matter timeline" is a descriptive title, often used on Memory Alpha when there is no official title. No one is making anything up, we're just describing something without a name. Since the red matter is what cause the split, we call the new timeline after it. --bp 17:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Re:Pesudohuman/Distantlycharmed - the problem with that is, if you're looking at the relevant scene again: not the "new" timeline is called the "alternate" one, but the "old" one. So, if "this is from canon" is our sole reasoning for a naming scheme, we are talking about tagging a bazillion articles as "alternate" while keeping only the new stuff untagged - not the other way around. Re:bp - and "Red Matter timeline" is still not the final name that has been decided upon. -- Cid Highwind 18:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::::: "alternate timeline reality" (our current qualifier) is the term used in the film when they (Spock/Uhura mostly) made the realization that things were altered... --Alan 18:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::::::"Alternate reality" to be exact. That's the term the "alternate" Uhura uses to describe the current universe, not the original "prime reality." So Cid's statement is incorrect.--Tim Thomason 18:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::@Cid, no "It is canon" is not the sole reasoning for a naming scheme. The rest, see above what Alan and Tim Thomason said. :::@ BP: Fact remains that "red matter timeline" or "nero's timeline" are terms coined up by fans to refer to the storyline in this movie. They are neither encyclopedic, nor do they go with canon, or have been endorsed and supported by production/writers of this movie. In this timeline, things were altered so it needs to be the alternate timeline, not Spock's or Nero's or Red Matter's. – Distantlycharmed 01:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::::::New guy here. The 2009 film timeline is now the timeline. The 60's show timeline is now the superseded timeline. - Starfield 22:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::::::But the original timeline still exists, is still the topic of this wiki, and still has more content here than the other reality. But thanks for chiming in. -- Captain MKB 01:25, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::I know it still exists. I just don't like the tag "Spock (alternate reality)." It isn't the alternate reality, it is the reality. "Red matter timeline" sounds kinda dumb. Maybe Distantlycharmed is onto something. Maybe "Spock (altered reality)" would be better. - Starfield 02:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::I don't think the new timeline should supersede the original one simply by virtue of which is chronologically newer. I think it is MUCH more important which one a) the original CREATORS of the whole concept were involved with and b) which one has VASTLY more material available. Once the new timeline starts to have an amount of stuff available that isn't completely being dwarfed by the original timeline, then it'll be a closer call, but for now, I think it's clear-cut that the new movie is still a variant and the original timeline is the default timeline. The new timeline doesn't automatically get super-respect simply because it's new. Respect must be earned through time and effort, showing that the new timeline can produce amounts and quality of material that can rival the original timeline. Once that happens, it becomes a contender for being considered the default timeline. Until then, it's just a variant timeline.--Samy Merchi 21:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::My vote goes for "Abramsverse" with an abbreviation like "ABU" (Abrams Universe) or some fan-created name like that. For example, you could label the Abramsverse Spock as Spock (ABU). "Alternate Reality" is too confusing, since there are other alternate realities and timelines (such as All Good Things or the Mirror Universe). I think the Battlestar Wiki provides an excellent example of how to structure a wiki that covers multiple continuities. Oh, and "Red Matter Timeline" just sounds cheesy. :P DarthXor 04:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::::You are joking right? "Abramsverse" as if he, a "real life" person, was not only the authority on Star Trek but he should also have a timeline named after him? With that reasoning, why don't we just create a new wiki and call it "JJ Abrams Star Trek"? Fan created names should not be used to reference this alternate reality.– Distantlycharmed 05:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::Well, OK, I can respect that... but surely there's something more descriptive than "alternate reality"... it's just too vague. Even "Red Matter Universe" sounds better than simply "alternate reality". DarthXor 07:49, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::::The problems I have with "alternate reality"/"altered reality"/"alternate timeline", etc. is... 1.) they're too generic and unspecific, and may consequently be misleading for some new users, and 2.) in reality, both parallel universes are shown as prime universes unlike the Mirror Universe, but the current system implies favoritism towards the older episodes/movies! While the Star Trek franchise is doing its best to seduce new viewers into watching, we shouldn't be discouraging new viewers from using this wiki! --Defiant 10:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::::We've got a MU subsite. Are we to have a new subsite? AyalaofBorg 13:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC) But it is an alternate reality that is created here, because we have 40 years of Star Trek and six series and more than half a dozen movies created in the "main universe" timeline. That should be honored. I mean look, while we are discussing this amongst ourselves, people already say "we should refer to this new/alternate timeline as x, y, and z." That would not confuse new readers and it would allow us to honor and acknowledge these past 40 years of Star Trek material. Unlike Abrams, we dont have the luxury of just pressing the reset button and erase what's been going on with Star Trek for the past four decades. ("secondary" timeline would make sense too). – Distantlycharmed 15:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Weaving in the New Movie with the Existing Fabric of Memory Alpha How do we reference minor supporting facts from the movie in existing Memory Alpha articles? For example, it may be possible to draw a connection between red matter and the artificial quantum singularity that powers Romulan war birds. The speculation is that red matter was used by Romulans to start singularities in war birds. (After all, where did Spock get all that red matter in such a hurry - from Quark's bar for some gold-pressed latinum and a lifetime supply of snail juice???) Since this idea is pure speculation, it seems worth adding to the Talk Page of the artificial quantum singularity and red matter articles. Should this just be added to the pages, or should this kind of edit be discussed here on this page first? Existing policy for this Wiki has been that speculation may be added to Talk Pages and that speculation is discouraged in Articles. Similar questions arise about appropriately adding speculation and minor facts regarding trans-warp beaming, the presence of Orion slave girls in the academy, Sulu's folding katana - factual information that has little to do with when Nero popped up. --Winn cochrane 07:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :Personally, I think maybe we should start a new wiki for the information in the film. Who knows. Maybe the film will do really well and spawn a series of its own. That would be a lot of information to conflict with the official canon.- JustPhil 12:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::I'd rather have one Wiki because many (if not most) of the plot devices are the same between this new movie and all previous work. The question about finding the best place for these new facts then becomes, "Will weaving in those details help explain the plot and tell the story of Star Trek?" The purpose of this Wiki (from "Goals of MA", and Memory_Alpha:Why_contribute) is to document canon. Why document canon? I say that Star Trek fans document canon in order to understand the stories of Star Trek. Trek to me explores the potential of technology to do good. Antimatter, singularities, and impulse_drive are based on real-world concepts and technology. Generally speaking, science fiction has always imagined humanity after some advance in science and technology - in Trek's case, the dawn of the space age. In our generation space exploration is well-established and now continues to expand. If a link from Star Trek (film) to Red matter to Singularity to gravitational singularity gets someone to start thinking about real-world science and the impact of that science on social issues, then Memory Alpha has supported Star Trek and served its purpose. --Winn cochrane 23:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :Where Spock "Prime" got the red matter from was dealt with in the Star Trek: Countdown comic, plotted by the movie writers. :[Of course, MA may choose not to treat ST:C as canon - and has a decision been made on that, or is there the automatic "not on screen, not canon" presumption pre-empting any consideration otherwise - but that shows at least the intended source of it]. - SanityOrMadness talk page 17:35, 10 May 2009 (UTC) How is this movie any different than any mirror universe episode we have seen on ENT and TOS where we basically created a separate entry for each character (mirror Kirk, mirror Archer, mirror Spock etc) and explained? Why does this have to be so complicated? Maybe in the movie that comes out later they will reset the timeline and then we went through two years of tagging everything that has happened in Star Trek from TOS to ENT as alternate, just to see the timeline be reset in the next movie maybe. The point is, this is all speculation and i dont see why we cant just treat this alternate timeline created by Abrams as any other mirror universe episode? And then the whole "Red Matter Timeline/Universe" thing. Create a wiki called the "Red Matter Star Trek"? Come on. – Distantlycharmed 01:35, 10 May 2009 (UTC) I suppose it is possible that the next movie will restore everything to as it was. But I doubt it. I strongly suspect that The Powers That Be chose this reboot specifically so that future writers will be able to do what they want, totally free from having to research canon and precedent, with no fear of looking over their shoulders for fanboys screaming "Continuity Error!" This in mind, it is my opinion that the best thing the admins might have done, is that on May 7, they might have renamed virtually all in-universe articles with the tag "(original canon)" or "(original reality)" or "(pre-Abrams)" or something. But the tags should be on the old articles, not the new ones. Spock has no mother, Kirk has no father. If there is a new series, or a few more sequels, it is going to get awfully tiresome putting "(alternate reality)" at the end of every single new article. --Keeves 03:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :There is nothing wrong or complicated about adding an "alternate reality" tag to new articles pertaining to this new movie. I really dont get why it's a big deal. And why should we dump on and forget 40 years of Star Trek history and works because Abrams might wanna make it easier for his writing team to coin up more stories like that without having to do much research? Maybe this is a "parallel universe" and parallel universes run...well parallel to each other, so this timeline could exist side by side the canon we know. Maybe Daniels from ENT went back in time and fixed the timeline, so what Abrams did was an interesting story not bothering continuity - who knows? the point is, this is all speculation. We dont know what Abrams has in mind and it really doesnt matter. He is by no means the end-all, be-all of all Star Trek stories and he is certainly not the main creative head/authority superseding everyone else's work and efforts over the past forty + years. For now we should keep it simple and just add "alternate reality" tags to new articles, instead of going back and tagging thousands of articles on MA to distinguish from Abram's interpretation and the poetic license he took. :You might be right that in fact Abrams had setting the stage for new stories based on a "clean slate" in mind, but that would pretty much set back Star Trek 129 years (and us back to the world prior to TOS) which just blows because the whole point of Star Trek is to go where no man has gone before and not resetting everything back to square one so the writers dont have to inconvenience themselves – Distantlycharmed 04:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::It's not just about writers not wanting to inconvenience themselves; it's about drama. If we know that Kirk ends up dying on Veridian II, that decreases the drama of a Kirk-in-jeopardy scene. Of course, we also know from dramatic convention that it's unlikely that Kirk will be killed (at least not permanently), but there is much less jeopardy when you know what the future holds. That's why they destroyed Vulcan: to show the audience that anything can happen. This new universe really is "where no one has gone before", at least more than something like Enterprise that had to end up in known territory. (Enterprise introduced the Temporal Cold War for the same dramatic reason, but never really carried it off.) ::But this is just a fan dispute that's not directly relevant to the question of how to handle the material from the film on Memory Alpha. I'm OK with the "alternate reality" tag, although I'd prefer one that was a bit more specific. If anyone can find an interview in which Abrams, Kurtzman or Orci discusses the timeline issue, perhaps one of them uses a better term. —Josiah Rowe 05:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Regarding SPOCK: I submit it could be argued that - Not only as he would have been born before Kirk (and the alternate timeline); but, it is unlikely that he would have personally been influenced by the premature death of Kirk's father, prior to entering Star Fleet - all new movie information regarding his birth, education and life decisions prior to leaving Vulcan for Earth (along with related photo references) be included in both the recognized reality and alternate reality. Similarily those of Sarek and Amanda Grayson would be uneffected before the appearance of Nemo. Therefore details Sarek reveals about their relationship would be true regardless. Thoughts? rrtthatsme 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::Agreed, totally. And using the same logic, everything about George Kirk prior to Nemo's appearance should be canon to both realities. --Keeves 14:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Going back to square one and starting an entirely new Star Trek with TOS originals at a younger age is not boldly going where no man has gone before. It saves on invention and is unimaginative. Not that i didnt like the movie, but when talking about creating something new it does not entail working on the same old formula/characters of yesteryear with just better special effects. We honestly dont know what future writers/producers will make of this. Maybe they will create a connection between this movie's timeline and something else in the main universe timeline of Star Trek, who knows. Boldly going where no man has gone before would be exploring Andromeda maybe. Star Trek has always been about exploring new frontier, discovering something new, the thrill of the unknown - the challenge of reaching beyond what is known and comfortable and within reach. It is about playing with questions about science, ideals and philosophy - according to Roddenberry's unique vision - not repeating old formulas and creating some sort of a "space opera" (which Abrams has a preference for). Anyway, I'm digressing. I guess the point is I really think this can be all kept very simple by just adding the "alternate timeline" tag to new articles to distinguish from and honor all the other works done in the Star Trek universe for over the past 40 + years. – Distantlycharmed 17:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Criticism of the Film While I think the film is GREAT (when seen in IMAX - like actually BEING IN SPACE - fantastic - deserves an award)...someone may come up with criticism of the facts or continuity. Where do we park these discussions? For example (NOT A REAL ARGUMENT, JUST AN EXAMPLE): "Why did all that red matter that destroyed the Narada not envelop the Earth? My answer is that the red matter had to be injected into the core of a massive object to envelop it. Although the Narada was above the Earth, it wasn't in the center and thus could not disturb the planet below." - Where does this discussion go? The Star Trek (XI) film talk page? The red matter page? The V'Ger page, since the same question applies (how did V'Ger explode above Earth without taking half the planet with it???) I hope my example highlights the essence of the problem regarding criticism. --Winn cochrane 08:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :It doesn't go anywhere. Nitpicks are not allowed on Memory Alpha. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' ::Not even on a talk page? Winn cochrane 09:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::Talk pages are for discussion of the article in terms of what should go in it - not general discussion of the subject. Sorry. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 09:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::Could you direct me to the page with the policy on nitpicks/questions? If nitpicks like that aren't allowed, how 'does' one get their burning questions answered? Ctetc2007 07:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :Better yet, your "example" doesn't go anywhere because the Narada had warped away from Earth in pursuit of the Jellyfish when the collision happened. ::Yes, they were quite far from Earth if their high-warp velocity was any indication. ::And V'Ger didn't explode -- it disintegrated... Are you watching different movies than the rest of us? -- Captain MKB 16:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :::Yeah, maybe Winn cochrane's in an alternate reality, watching these films! ;-) --Defiant 10:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC) New qualifier suggestions Ok, so, I have come to the conclusion that alternate reality is far too generic a term to use as the qualifier for the pages. There have been so many alternate realities on Star Trek; we need a term that better differentiates the timeline of Star Trek from the rest of the timeline. So, here are some suggestions. #I am still game for "red matter timeline," given the fact that it's red matter which is used to create the black hole that sends Nero back in time, altering the timeline. There's also the fact that "red matter" is unique to this particular movie. #In the movie, the elder Spock is credited as "Spock Prime", referring to the fact that he is from the prime universe. As such, maybe we should come up for a good term for the new versions of the characters that is the opposite of prime. The opposite of prime is "composite", so... "composite timeline?" #Since the split occurred in 2233, maybe we can use something like "2233 split", "2233 time split", or "2233 alteration." #As I recall, the writers once referred to the prime timeline as "Timeline A" and the new timeline as "Timeline B." We could so that same. Can't remember where I heard that, though. #If all else fails, we may have to create a real world POV qualifier for the articles ("Abramsverse," "Trek 2009 timeline," whatever). The Battlestar wiki does that and they seem to get along fine. Again, these are just suggestions. Please comment on the above; if anyone have any other suggestions, please add them below so they can be considered. Thanks! --From Andoria with Love 05:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :I think that "Timeline A"/"Timeline B" comes from J. Michael Straczynski's proposed reboot from a few years back (which actually bears some similarities to what Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci eventually did). I agree that using a real-world qualifier would be better than the generic "alternate reality", even though that's the term that Uhura uses in the film. —Josiah Rowe 05:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :: If this is the only "alternate reality" we are actually acknowledging then using the current qualified isn't a problem. Everything else will remain status quo. --Alan 05:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :But it's not the only alternate reality we discuss. See the examples at alternate timeline; we also have pages like Starfleet uniform (alternate), which deal with other alternate realities/timelines. (I don't think that there's a meaningful distinction between "alternate reality" and "alternate timeline".) —Josiah Rowe 05:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :::Composite? Huh, doesn't prime mean first? Where did you get opposite of prime is composite? 05:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :: The opposite of a prime number is a composite number. I though it worked, anyway. I dunno, I'm tired. :-P --From Andoria with Love 05:49, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :Incidentally, Alex Kurtzman calls it an "alternative timeline" in this interview. —Josiah Rowe 06:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Suggestion: How about the New Universe as opposed to Prime Universe? It's still somewhat generic but sounds cool. :New Universe means something different to comics fans, though that's not an insurmountable obstacle. —Josiah Rowe 06:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::I wouldn't use New Universe. Sure, it's new now... but, 40 years from now, when somebody reboots Star Trek again, it won't be New anymore. :::I agree, New Universe will be invalid if this is rebooted again. I prefer Nero Timeline, or even moreso, AbramsVerse which is similar to the already established ShatnerVerse. 14:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::::My vote is to maintain future flexibility by putting no qualifier at all on articles relating to the reboot, and instead we can enshrine the original timeline by calling it "Prime". Not only does "Spock Prime" set a precedent for this, but also check out the Wikipedia article about Earth Prime for other examples of this usage. With little or no canon references appearing, articles titled "James T. Kirk (Prime)" or "Starfleet (Prime)" would end up getting few or no edits, while "James T. Kirk" and "Starfleet" would continue to grow. Perhaps in deference to the cast listing, "Spock Prime" would have the distinction of not having parentheses. --Keeves 15:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC) I'm sorry, "red matter timeline" just really sounds silly. As Josiah said, Kurtzman used the term "alternate timeline" and in the movie itself Uhura says "alternate" reality. We also should not name the timeline after the director of the movie. This will create issues as then later you can have other directors and because directors have nothing to do with "in universe". stories anyway. I dont think "alternate" is too generic, since there is the main universe , mirror and now alternate (this movie). Yes there have been alternate realities within episodes in various Star Trek seires but they all fit in canon (main universe). "Prime" and "composite" universe sounds ok too (better than "red matter timeline" or "Abramuniverse"). If all subsequent movies are building on this alternate timeline, then naming it alternate timeline makes sense. If somehow they decide to reset the timeline and everything will be back to as we know it, then the term "alternate timeline" will still make sense. I strongly suggest we keep it simple. Going back and tagging thousands of articles on MA is not the solution or the wisest. For example, there is nothing complicated about referring to the new uniforms on the "starfleet uniforms" page as "In the timeline created by Nero in 2233, these kinds of uniforms x, y, and z were worn by Starfleet". – Distantlycharmed 15:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :Same uniforms were worn on the Kelvin, weren't they? So we can conclude that they were worn in the main timeline in 2233 too, and were changed to TOS version later, while they weren't changed in the alternate timeline. Ausir 16:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::Different uniforms in the Kelvin era. See George Kirk, for example. You should follow the lead of the credits and use Spock (prime), James Kirk (prime), etc. This honors the original continuity as the prime one. Then the "2009 film timeline" should be used without qualifiers to reflect the fact that this is now the reality as it exists, as altered. I know that probably represents a lot of work, but that is the best solution, IMHO. What Keeves said. (I just read it.) It makes sense that the unqualified articles are the ones that grow. - Starfield 16:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC) ::::In my opinion "the alternate reality" is not a generic term enogh to warrant a fanon replacement term. It is the only canon term used in the movie. I think we should go with it. Until another canon term comes along. What ever term we use, will end up in the in-universe text, and I do not think there should be any fanon-terminology there. --Pseudohuman 21:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Incursion? Temporal incursion? Nero incursion? Something with the word "incursion" in it, maybe. J Di 21:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Admiral Archer's beagle Is there anything going to be put in about the reference to admiral archer and his dog. More than likely its supposed to be a reference to archer from enterprise seeing as this dog porthos was also a beagle :The film's writers have confirmed that this is a reference to Enterprise, but there's some dispute over whether the fact that it's a reference (out-of-universe) also means that the "Admiral Archer" mentioned is Jonathan Archer or not. At the moment, there is a page for "Admiral Archer" at Archer, and there's a note in the "Background" section of Jonathan Archer. There's some discussion about how to handle this at Talk:Jonathan Archer#Scotty and Archer's Beagle, Talk:Archer and Talk:Porthos#Admiral Archer's beagle. —Josiah Rowe 20:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)